USC, UNC, and Ohio State: A Compendium of NCAA Violations
by Tyler T. on Jun 27, 2011 10:01 AM EDT
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Many comparisons have been drawn between the USC, UNC, and Ohio State investigations since the NCAA released its latest findings in the UNC case last week. From creeds denouncing Ohio State as more corrupt than USC, to incredulous reactions to UNC's notice of allegations, to general bewilderment over the state of college athletics, sportswriters have been comparing these three situations with fervor, and often, it would seem, without actually reading the NCAA releases.
In an attempt to compile the most accurate comparison page of the three investigations, I've constructed a table detailing the official NCAA allegations, alleged violations reported by the media, and corresponding penalties applied to each institution. I will update the tables as more information is released, most likely in early fall, and bump the post accordingly for further discussion. If I have missed any information or you see inaccuracies, please speak up so that the table can be updated.
The table is below the jump, and I recommend setting your screen view, located in the top-right corner of your screen, to wide. It will make the table appear in its natural, spacious form.
Finally, some conclusions I have drawn from comparing the three:
- The USC situation is not a particularly good analogue for either UNC or Ohio State. It involved three teams, multiple coaches, agents, five years of compliance failure, and, most importantly, an administration that failed to self-impose penalties and only acted after the NCAA forced its hand. Neither UNC nor Ohio State have quite that combination of antagonism toward the NCAA.
- For all the faults at UNC and Ohio State, both institutions have cooperated with NCAA investigators. It's been forgotten that Ohio State turned themselves in with Tressel's emails and UNC preemptively suspended players before the 2010 season. The NCAA tries very hard to separate individual behavior from systemic issues, and I think the measures taken by both institutions will help them.
- We can't know how much trouble Ohio State is in until the NCAA releases a new Notice of Allegations, but I still do not foresee a Lack of Institutional Control charge. USC received LoIC for its uncooperative behavior and systemic failure more than any one issue. The USC compliance department, at most, only had two members at the time of the violations-- Ohio State has six-- and it was deemed lacking in resources by the NCAA. UNC did not receive LoIC despite having an assistant football coach who directed players to NFL agents and was even on the payroll of an agency.
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Comments
Jennifer Wiley was hired personally by Butch Davis to tutor his children.
She came highly recommended and Butch thought he was doing the right thing in getting her to help his football team to improve academically. This seems to be more of an individual (Wiley) crossing the line, rather than an institution.
Tressel, however, knowingly looked the other way. For this reason I expect the Buckeyes football team to be hit harder than North Carolina, but not nearly as hard as the penalty imposed upon USC.
How is someone that works for UNC acting as an individual, while someone who works for OSU acting as an institution? Tressel and Wiley both were the only (prove-able) people involved in the respective coverups, and both were fired. I understand that Tress was in a much higher position, but the wrongdoing in both cases seems limited to each individual.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
As a quick-and-dirty explanation, I think because Tressel, as part of his position, actually has duties to ENSURE compliance on his part and on the part of his players. Wiley, on the other hand, was more of an independent actor who others had the duty to monitor, but didn’t have any monitoring duties herself.
"Actively Impeded"?
Can you show me in the report where the NCAA said USC did not cooperate.
Not cooperating is wholly different than not self-sanctioning or taking actions that might make the NCAA happy.
Try not to confuse what the press/pundits have tried to peddle vs. what it is in the actual report. You guys are going through some of that as well (the press jumping the gun or getting it wrong)…so I am surprised that you would take the bait without actually reading the multiple documents related to the USC case.
I have a lot of respect for OSU fans but you guys are going down the same road that many of us went down as our investigation progressed. I would expect the worst an hope for the best when it comes to the NCAA. If you don’t want to listen me then go talk to an Alabama fan…make sure you mention the name of Phil Fulmer…
You’re wasting your time trying to compare these cases because you never know what side of the bed the NCAA will wake up on when you sit in front of the COI…
"Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea,"
"We aim .......... to please"
Conquest Chronicles
I read your article on your site about Emmert and Gee. I found it very interesting. I never knew of the connection before.
As far as the media, well i certainly agree with you. The media convicts instead of reporting.
Do you think hiring Kiffin, who was already in trouble with the ncaa fanned the flames? Was USC initially charged with LIOC? I ask because i don’t know the answers. We have certainly had other fanbases claim to know our case when they only know what the media has fed them and i don’t want to follow them.
Don't know what to think about kiffin WRT the NCAA
they leveled a FTM charge for some minor/secondary violations…I see Mike Slive’s hands all over this to protect UT…
"Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea,"
"We aim .......... to please"
Conquest Chronicles
I have VERY inside knowledge of the environment in Knoxville and can tell you these troubles did not start with Kiffin.
UT is a dirty as they come...
and Dooley is a clown
"Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea,"
"We aim .......... to please"
Conquest Chronicles
The LOIC was leveled at USC after the allegations against OJ Mayo came to light
Read about Louis Johnson if you want details about Mayo. Football + Basketball=LOIC for USC.
Fact Check Required
In order to “compile the most accurate comparison page of the three investigations,” you must first start with an accurate representation of the facts. In the case of USC, it’s abundantly clear you’re either:
a) Uninterested in gathering the facts, or
b) Too lazy to do the research and gather the facts for yourself.
< Hint> Second-hand media accounts and opinions spewed on Internet message boards are not where serious journalists gather their facts.
“an administration that actively impeded the NCAA’s investigation over multiple years”
Impeding an NCAA investigation is an NCAA violation in and of itself. Please explain why the NCAA didn’t cite USC for impeding an NCAA investigation?
“Neither UNC nor Ohio State have quite that combination of antagonism toward the NCAA.”
It remains to be seen how the NCAA will feel about Jim Tressel affixing his signature to NCAA documents stating that he was unaware of the potential of any NCAA violations occurring.
It also remains to be seen how the NCAA will perceive Ohio State’s compliance Department failing to catch the e-mails in December, after being told by Tressel of the tip he received via e-mail of potential violations.
“For all the faults at UNC and Ohio State, both institutions have cooperated with NCAA investigators”
In the eyes of the NCAA, Jim Tressel IS Ohio State, as the actions of the coach are imputed to the University. Even the most ardent Buckeye fan will have to admit that Jim Tressel did not cooperate with NCAA bylaws or their December investigation.
“It’s been forgotten that Ohio State turned themselves in with Tressel’s emails”
It’s also not often mentioned from Buckeye fans that Ohio State finally turned themselves in on their third bite at the apple, after JT failed to come clean, and compliance failed to find the same e-mails in his inbox that lawyers subsequently found.
Since “Ohio State” is not a being, it’s intellectually dishonest to consider the lawyers that found JT’s e-mails more representative of Ohio State than JT himself.
“The NCAA report frequently mentioned the uncooperative behavior of everyone involved, from the student-athletes”
Don’t forget to mention they were FORMER student athletes who were not obligated to cooperate with the NCAA. This would only be a fair assessment of USC’s position if you’re willing to deem Ohio State as being uncooperative for Terrel Pryor’s unwillingness to now cooperate with the NCAA investigation.
“to the coaches”,
Surely you have a link to back up this statement, no?
“to the USC administration.”
Now you’re just making things up to strengthen your uninformed opinion While you’re diligently searching for ANY link to back up this statement with proof from and NCAA source that USC failed to cooperate, I’ll provide you with the exact verbiage taken from the NCAA report, starting on page 57, that emphatically states USC DID cooperate with the NCAA.
The committee also considered the institution’s cooperation in the processing of this case. Cooperation during the infractions process is addressed in Bylaw 19.01.3 -
Responsibility to Cooperate, which states in relevant part that, "All representatives of member institutions shall cooperate fully with the NCAA Enforcement Staff, Committee on Infractions, Infractions Appeals Committee and Board of Directors.
The enforcement policies and procedures require full and complete disclosure by all institutional representatives of any relevant information requested by the NCAA Enforcement Staff, Committee on Infractions or Infractions Appeals Committee during the course of an inquiry."
Further, NCAA Bylaw 32.1.4 – Cooperative Principle, also addresses
institutional responsibility to fully cooperate during infractions investigations, stating, in
relevant part, “The cooperative principle imposes an affirmative obligation on each
institution to assist the enforcement staff in developing full information, to determine
whether a possible violation of NCAA legislation has occurred and the details thereof.”
The committee determined that the cooperation exhibited by the institution met its obligation under Bylaws 19.01.3.3 and 32.1.4. The cooperation the institution
demonstrated in this case must be weighed against the conduct and failures of the
University of Southern California Public Infractions Report
June 10, 2010
Page No. 57
__________
institution and its personnel as set forth in Findings B-1-(b), B-6 and B-7. The
committee concluded that in light of the serious nature of the violations and the failure of the institution to detect and/or prevent them, the institution’s cooperation did not warrant relief in the penalties imposed by the committee in this case.
There you have it. FOUR times in the official NCAA report, they mentioned
- “The committee also considered the institution’s cooperation in the processing of this case.”
- “the cooperation exhibited by the institution met its obligation under Bylaws 19.01.3.3 and 32.1.4”
- “The cooperation the institution demonstrated in this case…”
- " the institution’s cooperation…"
“USC received LoIC for its uncooperative behavior and systemic failure more than any one issue.”
Rattling off the same mistruth ad nauseum doesn’t make it any more truthful the more often you say it.
“The USC compliance department only had one member at the time of the violations”
Oh brother…While you’re certainly entitled to your own opinion, you’re not entitled to your own separate set of facts.
May I suggest that you bone up a bit on the facts of the case as it pertains to USC before making yourself look like nothing more than a delusional Buckeye fan attempting to pacify your fan base from the impending hammer that’s about to be laid on your program?
FWIW, USC’s compliance Department got down to one officer for a few months when the head of compliance unexpectedly took a job elsewhere. Obviously, these positions require time to fill since candidates are identified through an intensive search.
That certainly doesn’t excuse USC for allowing the numbers to be so low, but if their compliance Department was as deficient as you claim, shouldn’t we have expected to see more violations over the four year period he NCAA investigated the program?
‘Ohio State has six’
According to your own internal audit in 2010, Ohio State’s six compliance officers continue to accept paperwork from athletes that’s incomplete, or not even turned in pertaining to car registrations… Which is the same mistake USC’s compliance Department made in failing to detect Reggie Bushs incomplete paperwork.
Good luck explaining to the NCAA why six compliance officers couldn’t find Jim Tressel’s e-mails last December. While you’re at it, good luck explaining why your internal audit identified your oversight of equipment as being lacking, which is likely a reason why Pryor and the others were able to steal and sign much of the equipment found by FBI agents.
Sheesh, That same internal audit identified 44 players driving cars that weren’t registered with your athletic department, and also found forms that were both incomplete, as well is not even turned in.
Making matters even potentially more ominous for Ohio State is that problems identified by auditors in 2006 were still uncorrected in 2010, primarily pertaining to car registrations and forms not being filled out properly.
Instead of wasting your time whistlin’ past the graveyard in an attempt to prove that Ohio State isn’t as bad as other programs, why not direct your focus on what needs to be done to improve the systemic corruption that appears to be running rampant within your program?
by brdcstr on Jun 28, 2011 5:22 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
This is just a mess of inaccuracies, and I’m surprised Paragon SC quoted you as “setting” us straight at his website. Either you have both not read the very Public Infractions Report (PIR) you cite, or you are still operating under some deluded assumption that jealousy drove the NCAA’s case against USC, as your esteemed former athletic director once stated.
It’s an uncontroversial claim that the NCAA punished USC for its collection of violations and systemic failings more than any one issue— that is, in fact, the definition of a lack of institutional control. Fighting that claim is a waste of your no-doubt-valuable time, and I’m not sure why you’re doing it, other than to be argumentative.
The introduction page of the PIR establishes that “the general campus environment surrounding the violations troubled the committee,” and then lists a series of failings the NCAA found with USC’s compliance atmosphere, including the behavior of at least one member of the coaching staff. Whether you, or I, agree with the NCAA"s assessment does not change the fact that USC was found systemically lacking in its effort to “achieve a rules-compliant program.”
You don’t have to travel past the third page for the NCAA’s opinion on the resources USC devoted to compliance: “[Institutions] must commit comparable resources to detect violations and monitor conduct with a realistic understanding and appraisal of what that effort entails, and what it will cost. In this regard, and particularly during the time of the football violations, the institution fell far short. In fact, the compliance director at the time (”former compliance director") reported that there were only two compliance staff members at the institution for most of his tenure and it was ‘just myself for a couple of months.’"
Furthermore, it’s been well established that USC plunked its head in the sand, which the NCAA implies in the introduction, when the initial Yahoo report unveiled the Bush violations in 2006 until the Notice of Allegations was received by USC in 2009, which, unsurprisingly, USC did not release to the general public because of its private school safety belt.
USC did not issue any self-corrective penalties throughout the process until after it received the NCAA’s Notice of Allegations on December 12th, 2009. Whether it was incompetence or pride, USC never made efforts to punish itself before the NCAA forced its hand, and that matters to the committee, if only to appear cooperative and in-control.
As to the issue of cooperation once the investigation began, USC did indeed meet its obligation under Bylaws 19.01.3.3 and 32.1, and I will amend that statement in the table.
Your analysis of Ohio State’s situation is riddled with assumptions; some that are just false— the NCAA does not view coaches synonymous with institutions— and some that may be proven true when, or if, the NCAA issues a second Notice of Allegations. Until then, your prediction of “the hammer” to fall is premature. It could happen, but we will have to wait.
So, . . . .
. . . are you, Tyler T, refuting any or all of what brdcstr has presently established in his comment? Or are you just into shooting the messenger.
Whether or not you assume brdcstr or any other Trojan is “deluded” in their perceptions as to the NCAA’s investigation into the Bush/Mayo, et al situation- is it your opinion that his facts are in error? Or is it that you don’t agree with the way the NCAA investigation report is written?
USC didn’t write the report, the very organization that operated the investigation and deemed judgment wrote the report.
Who’s making assumptions, here?
Listen, no matter how you slice it- USC didn’t come close to the improprieties that tOSU’s coach and players have done. Let’s not lose site of the fact that the NCAA has the sole authority whether or not to impose the LOIC-charge on a member institution and the situation that tOSU finds itself in now (no LOIC charge) is way more fortunate than what USC was faced with.
It’s just that simple.
The LOIC charge is almost impossible to defend against once it’s alleged. I don’t know of any school since the Appeals Amendment was approved that can successfully defend this charge.
I’ll just “assume” (since it’s the way to go over here) that schadenfreude is a bitch, and members of this blog may very well be into it.
We got hit, we’re moving on. . . . .regardless if you assume any/all Trojans want to admit to it. You wrote this post, and you had to imagine some Trojans would come to their school’s defense. If you ask me, your post was well written, just not well thought out.
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 28, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Listen, no matter how you slice it- USC didn’t come close to the improprieties that tOSU’s coach and players have done.
Wait, what? Can anyone really believe that Tressel’s lack of action is worse than the lack of institutional control charge USC received? One is the fault of an individual, the other systemic failure by an institution. If you can’t parse the difference, we can’t have this conversation.
Now, Ohio State could be charged with Failure to Monitor, LoIC, or lesser charges, but we don’t know what that will be until more information is released. Nothing in the original Notice of Allegations penned by the NCAA indicates Ohio State’s danger as an institution; there still must be something more proven for Ohio State to be charged with additional violations. Until something more comes from the NCAA, we can’t know what danger the institution faces.
After reading the UNC Notice of Allegations, I don’t see Ohio State receiving LoIC. The worse violations at UNC— agents paying players— are at least as bad as the rumored violations involving Terrelle Pryor. If UNC did not receive LoIC for that, I don’t see how the NCAA could levy it against Ohio State.
Paragon SC has written a lot about former USC AD Mike Garrett’s incompetence in guiding USC through the investigative process, and he’s right. Garrett failed to dance with the NCAA, and USC suffered because of it. The NCAA includes the process in their investigation as well as the violations, and both Ohio State and UNC have done a better job of appearing proactive than USC did, even if it’s just a token effort.
Yes...Tressel IS OSU
He lied, numerous times and the NCAA hates that…see one Bryant, Dez. He is getting a 10.1 no question…the question is will it translate down and hurt the program.
Hard to know
Don’t disagree that UNC looks pretty bad but that is an assistant coach…not the head coach. That’s kind of like the captain of the ship.
USC was just lax in its compliance. Is a recruiting dinner an extra benefit? Is a bunch of extra phone calls really a major violation? What about the extra coach? That’s a secondary violation at best, yet the NCAA made it a major hit.
What about calling Ornstein and Guillory Boosters after the fact. lots of inconsistencies with the NCAA>
Are you aware that the NCAA and the Pac-10 cleared OJ Mayo before they let him sign his LOI? Yet, they then said he took extra benefits before he came to USC.
You’re crazy to try and look into the crystal ball…they aren’t consistent. You think you’re in the clear and they will hammer you…you think they will nail you and they look the other way.
Rumors is how the NCAA enforces their rules
Buckle up and hang on…it will get real interesting once the COI releases their findings…
"Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea,"
"We aim .......... to please"
Conquest Chronicles
No, he’s not. Institutions are not synonymous with coaches, and this fallacy gets at the heart of my point. USC did not receive LoIC due to Todd McNair ‘s awareness of NCAA violations, but because of a cumulative set of violations within a compliance environment the NCAA deemed lacking. Due to UNC’s perceived climate of compliance, they did not receive LoIC even with an assistant coach acting as an intermediary between players and agents.
The show-cause penalty branch exists precisely because the NCAA views coaches as separate from institutions.
This cannot possibly be this difficult, can it?
The show-cause penalty exists so that other athletic programs WON’T re-hire a “highly competitive” coach immediately upon conviction or admissions regarding non-compliance, booster, and/or extra-benefit matters.
It has nothing to do with “relation separation from institutions”. Coaches ARE IN FACT SYNONYMOUS with the program they are coaching. THEY ARE THE FACE of the institution, in matters regarding sport and competition.
Jim Tressel, his Vest, AND. . . . .the OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY BUCKEYES!
Dear, Lord!
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 29, 2011 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Prove it
Show the case information regarding the formulation of this particular penalty.
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 29, 2011 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Pretty Straight forward...
2.1 THE PRINCIPLE OF INSTITUTIONAL CONTROL AND RESPONSIBILITY
2.1.1 Responsibility for Control. [*] It is the responsibility of each member institution to control its intercollegiate
athletics program in compliance with the rules and regulations of the Association. The institution’s
president or chancellor is responsible for the administration of all aspects of the athletics program, including approval of the budget and audit of all expenditures. (Revised: 3/8/06)
2.1.2 Scope of Responsibility. [*] The institution’s responsibility for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program includes responsibility for the actions of its staff members and for the actions of any other individual or organization engaged in activities promoting the athletics interests of the institution.
As I have stated numerous times the NCAA is unpredictable, you don’t how they will use their rules to nail a school and twist those rules to get what they want.
Kind of like Article 34 of the Uniformed Code of Military Justice…Article 34 is a General Article used a catch all.
You’re trying to use logic here…the NCAA defies logic.
USC fans tried that and we are still scratching our heads.
If you get off w/out an LOIC charge then good for you, but if they throw it in at the last second all bets are off as to how they will punish you and if you get nailed because of LOIC and the punishment is harsh you will be in the same boat that USC is in….
Pissed off and perplexed.
"Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea,"
"We aim .......... to please"
Conquest Chronicles
Of course there’s a relation between the institution and a head coach. That’s an obvious truth. The NCAA does, however, differentiate between individual behavior and the institutional controls in place to oversee compliance.
If Jim Tressel was synonymous with Ohio State, the institution would have been served with a LoIC charge in the original Notice of Allegations addressing his violation. The NCAA did not give Ohio State LoIC, Failure to Monitor, or even lesser institutional charges. Any institutional charge Ohio State receives in the future, then, must come from additional investigations.
Parting with a coach is viewed as a proactive measure by the NCAA, because coaches are representatives of an institution, not the institution itself.
If you stand by your man, then you do risk the potential for further institutional penalties or institutional restrictions that you might otherwise not face had the individual been released or moved on to a different institution," said Mike Ermert, a Birmingham, Ala., based attorney who represented the University of Alabama in a 1994 case against the NCAA.
“That’s why you’ve seen in cases over the years where institutions have let coaches go or have let administrators go as part of a self-imposed penalty.
You're saying what we're saying now, which is good
Because, originally- you had equated “show-cause” as some mechanism that detaches a coach/coaches from employer-institution.
Further, USC’s LOIC charge in the original notice of allegations stemmed solely from the fact that Jeff Trepagnier- while a basketball player and track & field athlete enrolled at USC, took a free flight from Ron Guillory (who ended up as a associative defendant in the more recent Bush/Mayo investigation) in 2000-2001 academic season. Thereby, committing a so-called “major infraction”, putting USC on notice of probation. The allegations against Bush and Mayo came to light within the last year of the 5-year probationary period- forcing the NCAA’s hand in serving our university with the LOIC charge.
In fact, there were no “systemic” failures in the “many players, many coaches, many infractions” side of the phrase systemic failure. We were on probation and a few of our athletes were investigated, didn’t provide first-person account testimony, and as such- because of a small staff in compliance and incomplete evidence and testimony- USC was made an example of by way of punitive penalties placed upon the Athletic Department.
Again, there is no widespread non-compliance issues. Our administration was derelict in staffing, they were not derelict in educating our student-athletes. Considering the totality of all the world-class athletes coming in and going out of our athletic programs, with a staff of 2 Compliance officers- they did a pretty bang up job.
They didn’t catch Bush’s father who got into a shady-deal with unofficial and would-be agents 150 miles away from campus, and they didn’t limit the access of an already approved “family member” of it’s star basketball player. The allegations of Lloyd Lake (Bush) and Louis Johnson (OJ Mayo) have never been “legally” defined as guilty verdicts of extra-benefits. But even the most ardent Trojan will tell you “something” was going on with those two- and for that, we should be punished for it. No if’s, and’s, or but’s.
The Death Penalty though?
It’s all about being on “probation” at the time of the Bush/Mayo allegations. That’s all the LOIC charge was and is about.
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 29, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice one.
That’s sure a short sentence, after a whole entire post of absolute nonsense regarding USC’s situation.
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 30, 2011 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
There was NO PRECEDENT before the COI handed down the reasons for the. . .
. . . .Lack of Institutional Control charge. Based on the evidence presented at the COI hearing, USC provided witnesses, testimony, paperwork, and principals in charge with their required responsibilities, as it applied at the time of alleged infractions in their attempts to counter the LOIC charge. That evidence and testimony was rejected. Based on what?
On this: that there wasn’t enough people in Compliance to properly monitor high-profile athletes. THAT’S THE ONLY REASON WHY THE LOIC CHARGE STUCK.
So you tell me: when, where, and how many Compliance employees ARE REQUIRED AT ANY ONE INSTITUTION based on the “high-profile-ness” of their currently registered student-athletes. Let me help you: YOU WON’T FIND THAT INFORMATION ANYWHERE WITHIN THE BYLAWS AND GUIDELINES in the NCAA member institution handbook(s). You just won’t.
We were hammered based on the flimsy reasoning by the COI Chairman for not having enough staff, thereby fostering an environment of potential student/agent contact. Here’s the kicker: where’s the beef? In other words, where’s the (1) allegations of student/agent relationship proliferation, (2) where’s the judgment on the same proliferation, (3) where’s the history of it ever being an issue at USC?
We were convicted on no existing precedent, we were judged (basically) for being stupid. THAT’S OUR LACK OF INSTITUTIONAL CONTROL CONVICTION.
You tell me Tyler, were the “systemic” lack of monitoring coaches, players, agents and boosters are to warrant the Lack of Institutional Control judgment.
What you’ve only got is the allegation and judgment from the NCAA, but the NCAA doesn’t provide you with the players. Why? Lack of Institutional Control for Bush, Mayo, some female tennis player, and what else?
How many people are involved in your current dilemma at tOSU. You want Lack of Institutional Control, look no further than your own campus.
Just saying.
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 28, 2011 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions
[EDIT]
The LOIC charge was leveled ONLY because of a previous infraction by a former basketball player who took a plane ride to a tournament from. . . .no other than Ron Guillory: the very person that Paragon previously and correctly stated was an approved “mentor” to OJ Mayo. The NCAA found fault with Guillory’s “access” to the team’s facilities and relationship with Mayo “after the fact”.
The former basketball player that Guillory previously provided flight fare was Jeff Trepagnier. That infraction occurred during the 2000 – 2001 season.
USC wouldn’t have taken OJ Mayo unless the NCAA wouldn’t clear him. He could only have played Division 1 basketball after being approved through the NCAA clearinghouse. The NCAA clearinghouse vets out academic, financial, and relationship approvals. Both Mayo and Guillory were cleared.
It was only until the LOIC charge was leveled that the COI found fault with Guillory. Besides, it can be said that when USC self-imposed the sanctions on the the men’s basketball team, that it had essentially given up it’s case against the LOIC charge. They both applied to the men’s basketball program.
Let’s summarize: Trepagnier took a free airfare in 2000-2001. OJ Mayo had a relationship with a known person that was previously convicted of, as being an operative for a sports agency. Guillory wasn’t “officially” deemed to be an operative in the more current case with Mayo, but again. . . . .USC “should have known”.
You tell me if THAT’S more severe than what tOSU’s student-athletes, coaches, ex-players, and pertinent individuals are alleged to have committed?
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 28, 2011 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions
USC didn’t come close to the improprieties that tOSU’s coach and players have done.
???
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
A coach that knowingly lies on more than one occasion. . .
. . . .to multiple administrators AND NCAA official report(s)? Let’s see- multiple players receiving extra-benefits, playing competitively during that time- essentially while (in effect) ineligible, one of those players receiving “unusual” amounts of extra-benefits (high-profile player requiring high-profile compliance.
Speaking of compliance, isn’t your university FULLY-STAFFED- Compliance Department-wise? And these hardcore stiffs CAN’T monitor Columbus, Ohio?
Columbus, Ohio?
We have two high profile athletes, one whose alleged improprieties take place more than 150 miles AWAY FROM CAMPUS, and (get ready for this) his “payoff” is a benefit FOR HIM TO LEAVE the freaking program: read: NOT STAY PLAYING COLLEGE FOOTBALL.
Yeah, . . . . clinically: I’m crazy.
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 29, 2011 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah way to take the high road elsewhere and then talk sh** about Columbus. Nice one, jerk. I know it’s not SoCal but some people actually enjoy living in other parts of the world, thank you.
Tressel lied, no doubt about that. And the tat 5 took improper benefits. But the dollar amounts of those don’t matter in your comparison? At all?
Pryor may have signed autographs for money, but that’s a highly unsubstantiated rumor at this point. At a time when several similarly unsubstantiated rumors about improper Buckeye benefits have been proven false, I’m not ready to believe it happened or is proveable at all to the NCAA (and yes, I know the NCAA is crazy and doesn’t abide by the standards of evidence of US courts).
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I'm not talking shit about Columbus, OH
And I apologize directly to you if you take such offense.
What I mean by “Columbus, OH” remark is that it doesn’t seem to be that much of a square area of coverage for 6 fully staffed Compliance officers.
USC had 2 (woefully, nad regretfully) to cover a square area over 800 square miles. Even with 6 Compliance officers that would be tough.
(the area coverage I give you is 20 miles for East/West, and 40 miles North/South of USC’s campus. I calculated such a formula based on known areas of residence for many USC students I went to school with and have known to have worked/lived while being full-time students at the Figueroa- and County-USC Medical campus. There is housing for full-time students within these mileage boundaries, I can assure you)
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 29, 2011 2:50 AM EDT up reply actions
You called me a jerk?
(i just noticed that!!!!)
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 29, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Careful Bix….if you use a header and have an unpopular opinion it will lead to at least a 24 suspension here.
Thanks for the tip sixfoot7!
Even still, as it is: even “I” can’t put up with myself, sometimes.
And, I’m- me!
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 3, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me aplogize if. . . .
. . . .what I’ve written construes “fanning” or “flaming”. That was not, and is not my intention.
I personally offer my sincere apologies if I’ve offended any Buckeye or you, Tyler T- specifically, if it is necessary of me to do so.
I hope to think that I am not a deluded Trojan, as I did not nor have not taken any offense to what was drawn in you comparison post regarding USC and tOSU. I am merely interested in understanding Tyler T’s reply to brdcstr’s comment.
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 28, 2011 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
This is all well and good, but....
My comment was on your statement of USC not cooperating with the NCAA….so was Brdcstr’s.
We can debate the other particulars you mentioned for a hundred years and never get a solid answer.
You said USC impeded the investigation Brdcstr proved that claim wrong.
Who knows what the NCAA will find in your hearing…it could be worse than what is already out there…then again maybe not. I am not willing to bet either way because the NCAA is that unpredictable.
I will say this though…
Regardless of what the NCAA says…tOSU will be branded a cheater by everyone else just like USC.
There isn’t anything you can say to change it. Your former coach lied…multiple times…many of your top players took multiple extra benefits, regardless of how minor rational people think they are,…many of your fans worshiped JT, so you are kind of painted into a corner.
In for a dime…in for a dollar.
I am not really concerned as to what happens to your program. We will comment on the situation as things come up but it really doesn’t affect us.
You made an erroneous statement…we merely wanted to correct the record. The rest is just window dressing…
Good luck!
"Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea,"
"We aim .......... to please"
Conquest Chronicles
We have already been branded, convicted and villified by the overwhelming majority of people. The general population learned nothing from the Duke lacrosse team and the media certainly didn’t.
Welcome to the club...
"Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea,"
"We aim .......... to please"
Conquest Chronicles
It’s like the “Hotel California”. You can check in anytime you want, but you can never leave.
by biggy84 on Jun 28, 2011 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If USC was so forthcoming, why did it take 3+ years? Was Reggie Bush not on the cover of a national magazine promoting his “whip” while a student there. Could the fact that Lane Kiffin, who was already in trouble with the ncaa and a part of the staff when the violations occurred, have angered the ncaa? The fact that USC was cited in multiple sports?
Both major players (Bush and Mayo)
Were no longer student-athletes, therefore- because the NCAA has no subpoena-power, both those individuals weren’t legally compelled to provide necessary/important testimony to NCAA Enforcement.
That’s why.
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 28, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait, when did the NCAA become a part of the government?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
You make absolutely no sense
And I refuse to be drawn into a discussion with someone who baits, and is terrible at it- at that.
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 29, 2011 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Since when has the NCAA been able to legally compel people to do things? A serious question.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
When they are under the provisions of any one member institution... .
. . . . .and when they sign the NCAA Student Codes (upon approval of their athletic scholarship) THEY ARE legally compelled to provide testimony to direct questioning regarding their student status and eligibility. That’s when.
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 29, 2011 2:43 AM EDT up reply actions
So if someone were to not provide this testimony, they would be punished by the government in some way? Jail time? Or just fines?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I am not certain what would happen to these students, . . .
. . . .if they fail to provide testimony to NCAA officials, NCAA enforcement, or their current university officials- nor have I offered any illusions to knowing such consequences of said insubordinate behavior.
Jail time seems a bit childish.
Fines? I doubt that an uncooperative student athlete will provide someone with a valid address to send copy or invoice of fine amount. I’d imagine. . . .????
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 29, 2011 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Like Bix said...
Bush and Mayo were not required to to give info to the NCAA…because the NCAA has no subpoena power.
The NCAA waited to see how the the Lake/Bush lawsuit played out so they could get more pertinent info to make a ruling.
I urge you to read ALL the documents on this case…ALL OF THEM.
They are linked in the sidebar on my site.
You’ll find it troubling that the NCAA cobbled together a story of spit of and toilet paper to hammer USC. We had our issues to be sure but not to the extent that the NCAA made it out to be.
If it happens to you’ll know what I mean.
I actually hope you get off easy…it will show more of the NCAA’s selective enforcement and that’s bad for every school…it allows the NCAA to operate at their will.
Tha is a bad thing…and it will be another nail in their coffin
"Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea,"
"We aim .......... to please"
Conquest Chronicles
I hope you both know that my questions were out of ignorance and not meant to be accusatory in any way. I was/am genuinely interested in some clarification of media reports. I appreciate your time and insight.
Like I said read ALL the documents
Its a crazy read…
"Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea,"
"We aim .......... to please"
Conquest Chronicles
Let me say this:
I don’t know your Buckeye school, from Adam. I respect your athletic program, but now that certain allegations have arisen from the more recent Tattoo 5 and Jim Tressel (whom I sincerely admire)- that might just change.
The rub? I hope you guys don’t have any previous major infractions that have occurred within the past 5 years. If you do, EXPECT A LACK OF INSTITUTIONAL CONTROL charge.
I’ll be watching and waiting.
I offer a sincere good luck and I truly hope your team nor your fans have to suffer from any of what the USC Trojans have had to suffer through in these past 5 years. Without hesitation, I hope the NCAA treats you guys kindly. I mean that.
My comments here on this thread are only meant to bring some clarification specifically to what, how, and why (my opinion on the why) the NCAA handled our LOIC investigation. Truly, that is and was my only intent here. How it will all play out for you, I wish you guys luck.
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 28, 2011 10:40 PM EDT reply actions
This is why I admire, respect, and dig on Coach Tressel
And it’s also why I respect the tOSU football team. With a guy like Coach Tressel as the face of tOSU, you guys have nothing to be ashamed of. He made some mistakes, so what? That he did these things for no advantage whatsoever, just to protect some of his players- that’s something you cannot fault him for. Unfortunately, it affects the school, students, coaches, administrators, and hardcore fans something fierce.
I’m dead serious when I tell you guys that I hope the NCAA treats you guys kindly.
My only wish is that the perception of USC is different, in Joe Public’s eyes. The hurt the Bush/Mayo saga has left upon Trojan Nation is immeasurable. It’s epic. And no one fanbase, nor institution should have to be judged as erroneously as the NCAA has judged our program. Whether or not you guys or any other fanbase believes the agenda that the NCAA had against USC is not important. The NCAA should not go against it’s own bylaws and precedents while judging member institutions to be compliant to the same. It’s ridiculous.
Good luck, and read the Facebook link. It made my wife cry. She’s sensitive to stuff like this.
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 3, 2011 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I appreciate your kind words. You have truly given me insight on your program and i genuinely thank you. The media is sensational and deceptive, but unfortunately some people believe it all. Our two programs have had a long and storied history, and now we share this too. I hope your program returns to the glory in a rapid way. (not that you have vanished) Best of luck!
And thank you for the Coach Tressel link!!
Your ex-Head Coach Tressel is a Champ!
In more ways than one.
I hope he lands on his feet- any institution will get an incredibly talented coach and one helluva man. I, too, wish your program the very best. Without an LOIC charge (crossing fingers), you guys should come out of it all unscathed- to some extent.
I read that there are over 350 minor infractions that have been self-reported recently across the board for tOSU athletics? That’s insane and remarkable. I find that your Compliance Dept and AD administration to be quite fortunate to not have received any major infractions. Chalk that up to incredible luck. Otherwise. . . . .???? those numbers don’t look good, although it’s out of sight, out of mind in the eyes of the NCAA and any lingering worries of an LOIC charge.
You’re welcome for the link and to all you Buckeyes: Keep your head up fans! You guys, personally, didn’t do anything to warrant the public’s hate. Your ex-coach is still a fine man, it’s just that your school will now (unfortunately) feel college football fandom’s wrath and hate. It’s mostly jealousy, trust me. (wink, wink. . . . .although I’m partly serious- most of the last remark is an inside joke Tyler)
If you want to walk the heavenly streets of gold, you gotta know the password, "Roll, tide, roll!"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 4, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
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